Monday, February 12, 2018

Vol VI No. 690 Part 1e - Discussion on the Kapu System/ Hawaiian Religion, etc. and Haole Version

NATIONAL RELIGION
Section VI. The religion of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ shall continue to be the established national religion of the Hawaiian Islands. The laws of Kamehameha III., orally proclaimed, abolishing all idol worship and ancient heathenish customs are hereby continued in force, and said worship and customs are forbidden to be practiced in this kingdom upon the pains and penalties to be prescribed in the criminal code.
Section VII. Although the Protestant re...ligion is the religion of the government as heretofore proclaimed, nothing in the last preceding section contained shall be construed as requiring any particular form of worship, neither is anything therein contained to be construed as connecting the ecclesiastical with the body politic. All men residing in this kingdom shall be allowed freely to worship the God of the Christian Bible, according to the dictates of their own consciences, and this sacred privilege shall never be infringed upon. Any disturbance of religious assemblies or hindrance of the free and unconstrained worship of God, unless such worship be connected with indecent or improper conduct, shall be considered a misdemeanor, and punished as in and by the criminal code prescribed.
Section VIII. It shall not be lawful to violate the Christian Sabbath by the transactions of worldly business. The Sabbath shall be considered no day in law. All documents and other evidences of worldly transactions dated on the Sabbath shall be deemed in law to have no date, and to be void for not having legal existence. It shall not on that day be lawful to entertain any civil cause in the courts of this kingdom. Every attempt to serve civil process on that day shall be deemed a trespass by the officer attempting it, and shall subject such officer to the private civil suit of the party aggrieved: Provided,
however, that it shall, in criminal, fraudulent and tortuous cases be lawful to issue compulsory process for the arrest of wrong doers, and it shall, without such process, be lawful on that day for any conservator of the public peace and morality, to arrest, commit and detain for examination a wrong doer.
L1846, IV, VI-VIII, p197
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Napua Ha'aheo I'm curious to know Hawaiian religion before missionaries
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Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii The Religion of Hawaii at the time missionaries arrived involved strict observance of kapu laws, idol worship, and human ritual sacrifice.
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Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg i wouldn't go so far as to call it "human ritual sacrifice". I would venture to call it "capital punishment". *The "capital" being comprised of both the Ali'i and Kahuna.
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Reply20hEdited
Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii Read David Malo’s Mo’olelo Hawaii. He references the beheading of a victim in the consecration of a luakini heiau.
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Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg You know, my ancestor was killed to consecrate a heiau so that our cousin, Kamehameha could rule. Would you call that a capitol endeavor or a "human ritual sacrifice"?
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Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii “50. Then the keepers of the kaai gods came, each one bearing the kaai god of his chief (the kaai god of the king also was there). The number of these idols was very great. The god Kahoalii, also, was impersonated by a man in a state of nudity.
51. At
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Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg Government (Ali'i) and Religion (Kahuna) in the past were synonymous with each other. There was no separating the two... so one can logically and reasonably conclude that "human ritual sacrifice" was synonymous with "capital punishment".
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Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg Kaci-Cheree Dizon Yayyy! Awesome! Aloha my cousin!
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Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii Your excerpt from Hawaiian Antiquities proves we were very strict and ritualistic with many protocols in place when it comes to killing people and that the consequences for breaking Kapu were extreme, when viewed through the l...See More
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Reply19hEdited
Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii I must say, that excerpt alone does not necessarily prove that we so simply and easily engaged in "ritual human sacrifice" as defined and perceived through the lens of Christianity. Because, again, our Government (Ali'i) and ...See More
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Reply19hEdited
Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii “53. Silence was ordered and the high priest stood forth to conduct the service; and when he uttered the words, “A hopu! A hopu!” all the kahu of the idols stood up and, taking hold of their idols, held them to their front, standing the while in a well...See More
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Reply19h
Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii Yes. I'm aware of the religious practices/ceremonies of our people in the past. How does this apply to the conversation we're having regarding the distinction between "capital punishment" and "ritual human sacrifice"?
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Reply19hEdited
Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg *Just so you know, I'm not in favor of capitol punishment or ritual human sacrifice. I'm just trying to make sense of the past as it pertains to our ever evolving nation today.
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Reply18hEdited
Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg Bottom line: I think we do ourselves a great disservice when we so easily and simply describe the killing of our people in our past as, "ritual human sacrifice". Because there's more there than meets the eye.
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Reply18h
Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii “72. Then a priest stood forth and conducted a service for the setting in its place of this idol, which service was styled ka poupouana.

A man, who was a criminal was first killed, and his body thrust into the hole where the idol was to stand. The ma
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Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii Sect. 72. That a criminal was chosen for this sacrifice is not to be credited. In order to fulfill this function worthily, the victim must be perfect and blameless. An infant, or an aged person, a female, or one in anywise deformed would not fill the bill.”
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Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii Ae. A criminal was killed hence, "capitol punishment" was served, not to be so simply and easily described as "ritual human sacrifice". *However, the religious slaying of innocent and unwilling people could most certainly qu...See More
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Reply18hEdited
Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii Remember, The man was sacrificed in order to propitiate the deity;

There are many examples of human sacrifices that were conducted on luakini heiau across the islands to propitiate and/or appease the ancient gods.
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Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii Ae and in doing so, serve the interests of our nation... of our Ali'i. Like I said before, Government and religion were not separate.
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Reply18hEdited
Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii If it involves a priest, a temple, ritual prayers, it’s a ritual sacrifice
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Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii Like I said before, Government and religion were not separate. How do you factor this truth into your argument?
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Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii Otherwise there were human executions that were carried out by those who were set apart for that purpose. It didn’t involve any priest, temple or ritual prayers. It was just done like any other execution. No prayers, priests, or temples needed. Now that, was capital punishment!
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Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii Ae. There were those types of killings as well as the kind involving our religious beliefs. The aim of both was as much in the preservation of our nation as well as in the preservation of our religious beliefs which again, a...See More
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Reply17hEdited
Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii No argument. There were simply executions and then there were ritual sacrifices. One required the office of a High priest of the order of Ku or Lono, to offer the ritual prayers and officiate in the temple ordinance that would attend the sacrifice. the other required the office of an Executioner, who simply, without ritual order, prayer or temple, put to death those who exacted such a penalty.
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Reply17h
Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg All things considered, I'm glad we're alive today to have this discussion! It was such a pleasure to talk story with you! Mahalo mahalo mahalo!
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Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii Stay tuned. More to come!!!
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Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg In short summary, from what I know, life or death matters/human sacrifices/capitol punishment was usually and entirely in the hands of Ali'i and Kahuna who both worked in Government... *unless there was an uprising of the people against the Government....See More
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Reply16hEdited
Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii It was Kaahumanu and Keopuolani who instigated and initiated the break from the kapu system and human sacrifice.
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Amelia Gora not true........ it was Kamehameha himself..appears you have a missionary version....
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Napua Ha'aheo Interesting. Thanks for all your help in answering my many questions.
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Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii Ask, and be ready to receive. If you don't ask, don't expect to receive. But be careful what you ask for. You may not like what you receive. Asking implies seeking for answers, light and knowledge. This is how you may know where my allegiance lies. It is in the kanawai of light and truth. Which light and truth is for all who genuinely seek to develop a broader, deeper and higher understanding of ourselves
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Napua Ha'aheo The truth is what I seek, I'm doing this for my kupuna who signed the KU'E petition.
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Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii Eo! They signed the Ku'e Petition knowing that many of them would be cast into prison, stripped of their property, and spend the rest of their days destitute, for demonstrating their loyalty to Liliuokalani, and the Kingdom of Hawaii. The greatest price paid
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Kahaka Patolo I disagree! I honor our gods before the white man. Christ is a white man's savior . I'm not one of Jesus followers. It is the Christians did HEWA to the Hawaiian Kingdom! So, i don't worship any Christian god! Ku and Lono are my favorite Hawaiian deity. NO HUMAN SACRIFICE NEEDED!
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Reply1dEdited
Elaine Kauai Jesus Christ was a Palestinian man.
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Kahaka Patolo Still not my God
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Reply19h
Ron Cawthon sadly this is part of the issues people in general in Hawaii, na kanaka, and Hawaiians face, selective history, more often than not, to suit the personal opinions, or religious beliefs of a few people...the reality is the Hawaiian Islands, as with any ...See More
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Tapuilima Hanapi Law of the Splintered Paddle ๐Ÿคท๐Ÿฝ‍♀️
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Reply21h
Ron Cawthon Tapuilima Hanapi laws like that, which benefited the people continued are still remain law today...
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Hailama Ani I believe in god and Jesus christ..but I also believe in our Hawaiian culture....
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Ron Cawthon As the Hawaiian Kingdom evolved all religions were respected, one had no power in society over the other...its time for people to understand how advanced and enlightened the Hawaiian Kingdom civil and political rights are protected...
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Hailama Ani Human sacrifices came way before we got here..
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Wilmont Kamaunu Kahaialii Ae. The practice of human sacrifice usually occurred in and/or around the building and consecration of luakini heiau in preparation for war. It involved ritualistic beheading in some cases. In another case, victims were sought for and once found, they were hooked like ulua, dragged through the village, and taken to the heiau to be offered to the gods
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Kainoa BugadoGroup Admin Comment sounds like a text book, is it?
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Reply15h
Pono Kealii the foreign one god belief of the western invaders is the religion of white supremacy. its goal is to dominate, subjugate, oppress and enslave the non-white peoples of the world through socio-cutural, historic and spiritual genocide, take over our gove...See More
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Reply1dEdited
Wiley Kanak Mahalo pono kealii and kanaka patolo. Me I was alter boy keaukaha. What I remember is da figurines was all Haole. Jesus child had blue eyes. I took cracks for asking my tutu lady if Jesus was haole. But dat slap set me free. Willy K you is an awesomene...See More
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Reply22h
Ryan Sonognini United Church of Christ .. we wasn't ready or prepared for this type of treachery.
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Dawn K. Wasson Where's the source? Cite the document that says otherwise please?
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Ron Cawthon Aloha,,who are the questions directed at?
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Dawn K. Wasson Amelia Gora comments about the breaking of the kapu system.
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Reply23h
Pono Kealii both liholiho and kauikeaouli were heavily influenced by their mother keopualani and step mother ka'ahumanu.

keopualani and ka'ahumanu were christian converts. pai'ea remained loyal to our traditional gods.
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Reply23h
Wiley Kanak Shoots garans ball barans all you buggahs posting hea know everything. So my question is do we da kanaka have to go to da heaven of da god dat whitey da mighty been bring?
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Kainoa BugadoGroup Admin The haole say Kaahumanu was scorned and went the Christian way. The Kamehameha kids had no say over her influence and who to worship, she was the top cheese. I find it an interesting reason for our government to become westernized. Personally grateful for Hawaiian Islands considered Christian, saves our okole lmao!
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Kristy Kinimaka Any book recommended on Hawaiian religion?
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Reply22h
Ron Cawthon most of the books are slanted in favor of Christianity, there many myths about the kapu system, if you go deep you may discover that system was basically a way to manage the resources of the islands...
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Lฤhela Nihipali A draconian system of management but at least the majority could answer “why” something was done. Still glad it was abolished by our Alii though.
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Pono Kealii the problem with the establishment of a "national religion" is that it creates a theocracy. theocracies tend toward oppressive authoritarianism.

the role of government is to make laws and to govern equally for the benefit of ALL of the people not just the ones that follow a specific faith to the detriment of all "non-believers".
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Reply21hEdited
Kainoa BugadoGroup Admin Seems like we all received a poor education on THAT subject and our examples turned our to be>> military civilian arm and the youngest country>> USA. We still need foreign education to understand monarchy government lol to bring ours out of recess! Lmao.
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Reply15hEdited
Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg You know, as we've seen from the past, some laws were meant to be changed, a change born from a deeper understanding.

I imagine this law was enacted to not only provide us with some kind of written moral guidance but, to also protect us from the "Do
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Lฤhela Nihipali One more section to delete once we can be free again. Bullshit like that was only written in (because context is everything) as a smoke screen for all the colonialist powers obsessed with their religion being the best—or else.
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Susan Rosier Actually the laws in the constitution set the stage for international recognition as an independent nation-state. The Family of Nations at that time was a Christian organization. In order to protect the Kingdom from being taken over by a foreign pow...See More
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Lฤhela Nihipali Susan Rosier That’s exactly what I was talking about.
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Aineki Aneka Valdez-Silva Aloha, we must remember, it was not the missionaries that did what they did to Hawai'i, but their children, a generation of thieves, who did not follow after the word of God or their parents ways, but the enemy, I truly believe upon study that the 33rd...See More
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Hailama Ani Love that 1! Tita
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Aineki Aneka Valdez-Silva Right on Hailama Ani, just sharing humble kine. Mahalo.
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Ka'iu Lambert How come we get selective when these are the actual laws of the kingdom? It wasn't as fabulous as everyone thinks. The Kapu system was also rigid. The KING HAD ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY. You were not free to do or speak the way we do today. Remember that.
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Ron Cawthon All that changed when the when the Kingdom of Hawaii was dissolved and Hawaiian Kingdom was created in 1840 with the constitution, and became a constitutional monarchy...
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Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg History has taught me that we were all free to RESPECTFULLY speak the contents of our minds and our hearts especially in our defense, in my humble opinion. That has never really changed. For example, the people, knowing their rights, respectfully petitioned Kamehameha the Great to stop his war and he apparently listened.
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Reply21h
Pono Kealii Christianity is a religion partly based on the doctrine of white supremacy. the Freemasons are a secretive organization with Christian white supremacist ties. Christianity and Freemasonry are based upon the same doctrine of white supremacy. an abjectly racist ideology.
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Reply11hEdited
Debra Koonohiokala Norenberg Speaking of religion, when was the last time any of you prayed to the God of your moral conscience to please continue to bless our Kingdom? When was the last time you said to the God of your moral conscience, "thank you God for blessing our Kingdom."? I'm just wondering. Hau'oli la pule everybody! Happy Sunday!
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Reply21hEdited
Aineki Aneka Valdez-Silva Happy Sunday Debra, Every day.. Every second, minute, hour, I give praises to our God.. Praising Him for me isn't only a Sunday and Wednesday thing... Everday is the Sabbath to me. Aloha. Huge honis!! ๐Ÿ’›๐Ÿ’š
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Aineki Aneka Valdez-Silva Free masonry is made up of men, such as Albert pike and is a non Christ entity... It is based upon man made theories, the free masons do not follow after the Torah but have secretly attached itself to the Talmud and its mitra. And skewed ideas, that basically denies the idea of a savior.
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Ron Cawthon Lest we forget Queen Liliuokalani was a freemason...
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Susan Rosier And King Kalakaua
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Chris Kapa I wonder if our Alii would have supported the Christian religion of they knew what we knew today. That our people were dying at catastrophic rates not because of the Gods but because the haole had immunity to those diseases that we didn't have.
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Ron Cawthon That right, it falls under horrible shit happens, the good news is today there are reportedly more than 500,000 folks around the planet with kanaka blood...
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Pua Ishibashi Very interesting subject and discussion. Too much to read, but I get the jest. My two cents here. Many Hawaiians want to embrace their culture not knowing what it is and how it evolved over time. Many Hawaiians want to chuck the bath water includin...See More
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Kaci-Cheree Dizon A political strategy that worked. That is all.
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Kalama O Ka AinaGroup Admin "Colonial thugs with their bibles and their drugs." I'm very down with freeing ourselves from Christianity!
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Wiley Kanak I like talk too. Hea how I see. We got kick in da ass. If god saw, did he or she bless da boot or da ass? Or is god futtin around? Me I feel da god from da mido east on da Haole side, they winning. For feel good I talk to da trees. Aina give me blessings but I gotta pay attention. What I see is da Haole killing my god mama aina, I gotta believe dat greed and air conditioning and cadillacs, and hotel developers at wailua kauai is god. I honestly no see prayer healing da ozone or swallowing up one nuclear bomb. My god mama aina tell me all da Haole buying land in puna wea get da caves for hide wen da bomb drop. Prayer never get dat puna property god money been give dat blessing. I read in this post that da one god is with you in you time of need so pule, well I no wish hard luck, so pule for your relief. My god is da oldest one living god— Aina and she said “Wiley wen u hanau from da dark till u return back to da dark pay attention cause boy you on your own, DUCK” W.K.
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Gwen Kim Love Mama ‘Aina❤️✊๐Ÿฝ❤️
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Reply9h
Mark Miller I don't know how to react to this post.

I was baptized Catholic because that is the faith of my father's family going back to the time of Kamehameha III. In fact, the first of the royal family were baptized on the return from England with Liholiho's r
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Mark Miller I should mention I am Pagan now. LOL!
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Malia Temana Laka if you were catholic that was of one son and the hapa following of kahu and old practices , christian was of kahuumanu spite because liholiho had to split heir " assets" he got the land to "stewart" as being the other son. in repetition, favorite sons ...See More
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